System Leadership for Equity: Trusts, Strategy, and the Future of Education | Leora Cruddas CBE

Abdul: Hi everyone. Welcome back to another edition of Voices in Education, a podcast by Showbie. My name is Abdul Chohan, I'm the Vice President of Learning at Showbie, and today with us we have Donnie Macleod, Executive Director of Education for Fife Council. Welcome to the podcast, Donnie.

 

Donnie: Thanks very much, Abdul. Good to see you again. Always good to chat with you.

 

Abdul: I know we've had a lot of interactions historically. I kind of want to give a sense to all the people that are the audience for this particular episode, a little insight into who you are, what's your background, where did you come from?

 

Donnie: Let's kind of start with that. Okay, in terms of education, I did my education training in Glasgow way back in the late 80s. After qualifying, there weren't any jobs in teaching. So I went down to work in the Scottish Borders actually as a development officer.

 

My subject background is physical education. So I was a development officer there for a few months and then a post opened up at University of Stirling as a grad assistant. I took that on and undertook a master's study over the next 18 months, and then came into the teaching profession about 1991. I taught in two large secondary schools in different posts over a period of about 15 years.

A large secondary in Falkirk Council with about 1500 pupils at that time. And then I moved to a school just outside Glasgow in Dunbartonshire, Lenzie Academy, with about 1300 youngsters at that point. Following that, I went in and worked with the Schools Inspectorate based in Glasgow, but with kind of a national remit, for about 14 years. So different roles during that period of time.

We inspected nursery, early years, primary, secondary, further education colleges, and I did a bit of work in prisons as well over that period of time. So yeah, that was a great period.

Then around about when I hit the 50 mark, I decided to make a change and I went into Glasgow. I went in and worked with a colleague that I had worked with in the inspectorate, who had become a director of education in Glasgow. And I went in there as a head of service for six years, and the last 18 months I've been a director of education in Fife. So enjoying that, and yeah, I think that'll see me through to retirement.

Abdul: Wonderful. I think Glasgow is a story in itself and it's quite well documented, but I'm really kind of interested in the work that's happening at Fife. So what is the kind of vision at Fife? What is it that you're kind of looking to do as a council, as an exec director? What does that kind of strategy and outcomes that you're looking to get look like?

Donnie: I think the strap line for education services in Fife is a strap line that I inherited as an executive director, but it's one that I identify with. It's about improved life chances. And I think that would sum up and chime with my own philosophy of education — education is about improving the life chances of every young person in Fife. And I think the key to doing that is to make education and learning richer, and of a higher quality, with greater consistency across what is a large local authority area.

So essentially this is about higher quality learning and teaching. So I see that as the big vision for us, and through that, improving attainment and achievement for young people, and helping young people then to be able to secure and sustain a positive post-school destination, whatever that may look like. That might be training, it may be volunteering, it may be apprenticeship, it might be further education or higher education or employment — whatever that is, helping young people to be able to both secure that destination on leaving school and being able to sustain that throughout the life course.

So essentially that's the big vision for us in education, improving life chances through a higher quality education and learning experience.

Abdul: I mean, one of the things that I kind of experienced a lot on my travels is there are organisations, whether at ministry level or even like independent or private education organisations, that have multiple schools — 20, 30, 40 schools. And one of the challenges or discussions that always come up is about scalability. So at one end, we have this vision and scale at the top, but then how do we make sure that it's scalable and then it's having impact in the classroom? So how do you design a strategy that has that degree of scalability and that kind of focus and impact in the classroom as well?

Donnie: I think probably central to that is to ensure that you're touching base and involving practitioners right from the get-go. So they're involved in designing the strategy, that you're consulting them over the strategy and what that strategy will look like and how it's likely to impact at the front line. And I think for us, it's about supporting practitioners. Practitioners are our best resource to bring it about and secure that vision for education in Fife. And therefore, I think we've got to ensure that any development that we introduce or implement is underpinned by a really strong investment in career-long professional learning.

So this is about supporting the staff, not just initially, but for the long term, and ensuring that we protect the resource for that, because that'll be key. It's not just about the one-to-one device — it's not just about dropping a device into a school. It's about equipping the practitioners to make use of this device to secure better learning, more enjoyable teaching for them, and richer learning for the youngster, and ensuring that they recognise they're going to be supported along the way.

There's a huge variation among staff in their competence level, if you like, and their willingness to engage with that. But we've got to ensure that we're surrounding them with a high-quality professional learning experience for the long term. So touching base with them from the get go, allowing them to feed into the strategy. Scalability is continuing to ensure that you're tapping into best practice, using that to convince people, and coming back to the vision all the time. I emphasise to practitioners why we're doing what we're doing and how they'll be supported. I see part of our investment here, or Fife Council's investment here, as being a way of both retaining our current staff and being successful in recruiting staff to the authority — not only because we're investing in practitioners in this way, but we'll continue to invest in them with quality professional learning for the long term.

Abdul: Okay. One of the things that you've certainly been successful at is proactively investing in education. I think certainly from an English perspective — speaking to councils there, I play the role of governor in one school, and I often go out and speak to governing bodies as well — why is it important that local authorities should invest proactively rather than wait for something like a national directive in terms of a strategy like this?

Donnie: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think sometimes there can be a reticence in national government about a fear of failure, about getting it wrong, whereas I think local authorities, being closer to the workforce, closer to their communities, know their communities better. I think they are best placed to implement things that are going to be in the interests of their own citizens. They understand their communities, their people, their workforce much better.

And I think sometimes there can be that reluctance at a national level. I mean, I think probably what we've seen in Scotland is we've seen a tremendous number of reports produced over time — we're probably over-advised in terms of the number of reports. But in terms of what's actually been implemented on the back of these reports, we're probably not as strong, in terms of bringing into practice and into reality the evidence and advice of those international experts who produce the reports.

So I think local authorities, rather than waiting on national government, can be much more agile, and we can respond more proactively to the needs of our communities as we see them. Now the challenge in there is how you get the resource and how you prioritise it, because it's not a limitless pot of money or resource. You've got to prioritise within the resource that you have and be clear about what the benefits are that you're looking to secure.

I think it is about local authorities being proactive, and essentially about being prepared to take the risks. And there might be a bit of resistance along the way, but I don't necessarily think resistance is a bad thing. If you're looking to disrupt the current landscape, you have to accept that there'll be a bit of resistance along the way, and that's not necessarily a bad thing — it could be an indicator that you're actually progressing in the right way. So I think local authorities have that agility, flexibility, responsiveness, and can demonstrate the leadership required to make a difference in their communities, if that makes sense.

Abdul: Yeah, thanks for that. Okay, and feel free to bring examples from Glasgow in for this one as well — but what does success look like? And how have you kind of seen success in past projects, and in your current role, in terms of student outcomes, wider community impact and so on?

Donnie: Yeah, I think ultimately this has to be about — if I come back to the strap line for Fife, improving life chances — that's what we're all working towards. And it's about how we secure that for all of our young people. So improved outcomes in terms of positive destinations — my perspective is that positive destination is the golden outcome for education services across Scotland. The more young people we can support into a positive destination post-school, the better. And it's about how we do that. Now, we know that improving outcomes, improving the level of attainment and achievement, and the all-round development of that individual, makes that more likely.

I think from what I've seen in the past — I mean, clearly I'm supportive. It was a council decision to invest in one-to-one devices in Fife. Clearly coming from a Glasgow experience, I was very supportive of that. On the back of being a father, my own children's experience in Falkirk Council — I've seen the benefit of them being able to have a one-to-one device, and how that's gradually been able, over time, to transform the learning experience. I saw that in Glasgow too, transforming the learning experience in a very challenging community. And from that, I was able to witness better engagement for young people in their learning — young people taking more responsibility for their learning, having more agency in and for their learning. And as a result, we saw incidents of disengagement, poorer attendance, and even serious disciplinary incidents reducing over time. I would be hopeful that we'll see similar benefits.

I think one of the other things we have to be mindful of is that we've suffered in Scotland for a long time with the bureaucracy of education and the workload that staff experience day in, day out. And I think the one-to-one device helps us reduce bureaucracy, making education more efficient and effective, making the teacher's job better and more enjoyable, and making the journey more engaging and higher quality for the young person. As a result, education can be brought into a much better place that lightens the load for staff, addresses their long-standing issues around bureaucracy and workload, and creates greater time for them to build relationships and support youngsters in their learning. So essentially that's where I'd be looking to locate these developments within Fife — making it a daily endeavour to make learning more enjoyable for the youngster, and more efficient, effective and enjoyable for the members of staff.

Abdul: I'm going to go a little bit off track here now, because it's something we were talking about earlier, and I think it's probably important to mention, and I think people would love to hear your views on it. At the moment there's a lot of discussion about mobile phones, screens, technology and so on, and I think in many conversations — reasons both for and against — I kind of hear the whole thing blurred between mobile devices and learning devices and mobile phones. What are your thoughts on that?

Donnie: Yeah, I think it is a contested space, and sometimes a confusing space, because people automatically think screen time means doom scrolling and leisure activity. Whereas I think we need to be clear that our investment in Fife, and our investment in Glasgow, has been about using the device as a learning tool. This is about transforming the learning that young people experience day in, day out.

We may have concerns, and there are legitimate concerns, around the amount of time that youngsters — particularly very young youngsters — are spending on screens, and how that impacts on their ability to learn. But I think we need to be clear that we're using and deploying the device in a way that will transform the learning experience. So this is about a learning tool, and I think we can take steps in terms of responsible usage.

Ultimately, I wouldn't be of the view that we need mobile phones in primary — that would be my own personal view, and I think we should move towards that as a society. But in terms of secondary, we need to be teaching our youngsters and helping them navigate the digital world, which is their world and will continue to be their world going forward. We need to equip them to better manage and recognise the risk, because parents won't always be able to look over the shoulder of the youngsters. So we need to develop within our youngsters that capacity and understanding to manage their digital world, because that's the world they will continue to inherit and inhabit, both in their leisure and their employment.

So I think we have to accept that the digital world is here and here to stay. But we also need to be mindful that we need to continue using technology to ensure young people can be attentive, motivated, inspired, and have the capacity to manage their own learning, and not let any of that be overridden — whether by technology or by artificial intelligence.

Abdul: I agree. I think certainly over the last two or three years, there's been a bigger shift towards using technology for a pedagogical approach, rather than using technology for the sake of this particular app or that particular app. This pedagogy-based approach is becoming a much stronger conversation, and teachers are beginning to look at what types of pedagogy they can apply technology to, to reduce workload.

Donnie: Yeah, definitely. And that was the strap line in Glasgow, and we've kind of adopted that in Fife as well, under "transforming learning." It was "connected learning" in Glasgow, but we've gone for "transforming learning" in Fife — but it's very much that strap line of this being about the teaching, not the tech. It's about moving from ed tech, if you like, to ped tech. It's about pedagogy, it's about teaching — how does the intelligent use of this device enhance the learning and teaching experience for everybody involved in our schools. That'll be a big focus for us, and a major focus in terms of career-long professional learning.

And if you think of the SAMR model, it's about looking at the opportunities we have to augment, modify and redesign the learning — not just substitute blackboard for iPads, but actually look at how we redesign the experience. I've witnessed that firsthand in some of the great practice I saw in Glasgow, and it's beginning to emerge already in Fife, although we're only in the first few months of the rollout. We're beginning to see practitioners embracing it and youngsters responding positively to that, so I think that can only be a great encouragement for those of us involved in it.

Abdul: Brilliant. So how do you use data to evaluate the consistency and impact of curriculum delivery across your schools?

Donnie: Yeah, I think it's looking at all of these data sets and what they're telling us. The management information system, the Jamf report, will give us information on an ongoing basis to let us know where devices are being used, where they're not being used, and whether there's a need for us to intervene and support staff in a better way.

I was in a school last week and the teachers were saying the rollout has been pretty quick, because there was a political imperative to that, and a lot of the professional learning — the initial five hours — has taken place, and it's been quite intense. But what they're saying is they're identifying champions within their staff who can then look to further support other staff in terms of confidence with the tool.

So I think there'll be a number of data sets that'll be pivotal for us — where the device is being used most productively and effectively, and then how that compares with the data sets around attendance, engagement, and improved attainment and achievement, and reflecting on all of that.

And I think, going forward, one of the focuses will be what good use of technology looks like in subject-specific areas. So one of the things we've invested in, in Fife, over the short term, is subject networks — chemistry teachers, physics teachers, English teachers coming together and reflecting on best practice, what's happening across departments and schools within Fife. Part of that discussion will be what best practice looks like in relation to the use of technology, and how we continue to enrich young people's experience and secure better outcomes for them through that use of technology. So the datasets will be really important going forward. It's probably early on for us in terms of our development at this point, but we've got sight of that data, and the Showbie Impact Report will be a big part of that.

Abdul: Thank you very much. So just kind of wrapping up in some ways, but looking ahead — what are you most hopeful about in terms of the future of education, in Fife and generally across Scotland? How have you seen this impact change? Because obviously, to give context to the audience, Glasgow heavily invested in digital, so did Borders, Falkirk, Edinburgh, and Fife as well now. So what does that mean for the future of education in Scotland?

Donnie: Yeah, I'm encouraged. If I think of the local context within Fife — the investment in digital that was taken at last year's budget is reflective of a council that is investing in and valuing its citizens, its workforce, its staff, its young people and their communities and their respective futures. And that can only be a good thing, in terms of people feeling valued that the council has chosen to invest in them in this way.

And then I think the challenge for all of us in education is to make sure we're doing all we can to draw out the rich potential and benefit of that investment. We're giving young people and staff great opportunities to embrace the technology to benefit their own roles, the productivity and enjoyment of their work — but also, from a young person's perspective, an opportunity to really take responsibility for and drive their own learning. And there's equity across Fife — it's not dependent on who can afford to pay, it's not a situation where some young people have high-quality iPhones and others have more limited technology. Everybody's working on the same basis, so there's a huge degree of equity there, which is important for us.

And I think ultimately it comes back to improving life chances. I think too often education in Scotland can be seen as a cost, as opposed to an investment in the future of our young people and their communities. So I'm encouraged by that. I'm also encouraged as I visit establishments and come across really good staff who are embracing the technology and clearly making a difference — you see the magic happening and being woven in front of you as you observe learning and teaching in the classroom. It's about how we continue to support and release staff to do what they're good at.

You mentioned earlier about the data — I think one of the things the data is about, for me, is coming back to the three pillars of self-evaluation, which we've introduced in Fife. We need to continue looking at the data, both qualitative and quantitative — what are people saying about it, what are their views — and we will, as we did in Glasgow, undertake a council-wide survey every two years, so we have a baseline and can see how things are progressing, because councillors and citizens will want to know that too. It's a significant multi-million-pound investment, so they want to know they're securing benefit as a result of that impact.

And then the other bit is the observations — that's the bit I'm beginning to see, and staff will see, as they begin to observe each other's practice and get in and out of each other's classrooms. Hopefully the variation will reduce from one classroom to the next, the consistency will improve, and attainment will rise — and again, that's with the ultimate vision of improving life chances for every learner in Fife.

Abdul: Tell me about personalised learning. I mean, we've had a vision for personalised learning in Scotland for a while — that can be a big ask for a practitioner with 33 learners in front of them in some classes. I think the technology now gives us an opportunity for a greater degree of personalised learning than we've had before, in a way that makes it more manageable for staff, and youngsters can take more responsibility for personalising their own learning because they have the tool in front of them.

Donnie: Well, that's been an aspiration and a vision for Scottish education for some time. I don't think it's one we've really meaningfully been able to implement. But I think the use of technology going forward, and the provision of the device, gives us that platform to secure, to a greater degree, more personalised learning for every youngster.

I was at an event a few months ago and there was someone from government there, and one of the points they made is that one of the barriers to education embracing artificial intelligence — and we have to be mindful there are some risks and benefits to that — is that there are two things councils really require: they need the infrastructure and they need the network. And because Fife has invested in the way that it has, we now have both the network and the infrastructure, so I think we're well placed to embrace the benefits that artificial intelligence may bring to children's and young people's learning experience.

Abdul: So a couple of things on that. One thing you talked about there is around equity, and students having their own devices, meaning they're able to share their learning in a way that works for them. That's really interesting — at the moment, on my travels, both in Scotland and in England, moving around schools and organisations that have invested in digital and some that haven't, the way they address the needs of children is actually significantly different.

I've walked around classrooms with an effective digital learning strategy and noticed children have got their own colour filters on, some have different text sizes on, some might submit their work as pen-to-paper writing and then scan it with their device and upload it, others are typing it out. That flexibility is actually quite important. I was speaking to one teacher who said that when the devices were deployed, as far as she was concerned there were about four students who needed colour filters — but once the devices were deployed, suddenly six others adjusted things here and there, and it turned out they were better suited with colour filters too.

So the idea of personalised learning is very different — I suppose no different from real life, really. Everybody's phones are different, everybody's got different settings. But I'm definitely beginning to see that. It's becoming a lot more effective where educators have that clear strategy — "there are no screens being used at this moment in time, they can lock it" — so no one's on the screens, they're facing forward, listening to the teacher, and so on. So I completely understand that approach to personalising.

And then just a few words on the AI aspect — I think where organisations have invested in a one-to-one technology strategy, they've got an infrastructure, and just like you said, when new technologies come out, they're able to evaluate and decide whether it's going to be effective pedagogically and make a difference, or whether it's going to be a hindrance and a distractor. Whereas in many other organisations where that infrastructure and investment isn't there, the uptake of new technologies that might be effective, that might allow for time and cost savings, just isn't able to happen. The more places I travel to, the more schools I engage with in Scotland and across the UK, the more evident that becomes between those that have invested digitally and those that haven't.

Donnie: Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the pressures currently in Scottish education is the explosion of additional support needs — more diagnosis, more youngsters with identified needs. And it's about the challenge that places on the workforce, and how we help the workforce respond to that need and demand. I think, again, the device gives us an opportunity to do that as efficiently and effectively as we can, and provide support through the technology for young people — whether that's dyslexia, English as an additional language, whatever the barrier is — there are opportunities now for that to be done in a much more subtle way that meets the needs of learners to a greater degree.

And I think you touched on another thing there that I didn't mention earlier, which is the collaborative piece. So while it's a one-to-one device, every youngster has a device, and part of our vision for transforming learning is creating opportunities for youngsters to collaborate together on pieces of work. That would be one of our measures of success — to what degree have we got greater collaboration around learning, where learners are learning from each other, not just from the member of staff, but where the context and activities are created to elicit that learning and youngsters can recognise it for themselves, using other learners as a resource to improve their own learning. I think that'll be a key touchstone for us going forward — that collaborative piece.

But also, one of the things I've personally identified with the Showbie approach is strengthening feedback. As I've listened to you in the past talk about direct instruction and making assessment smarter, more efficient and more effective for the learner — essentially around strengthening that feedback loop, which helps move the learner forward in their learning — I see technology, and the use of one-to-one devices, as a way of really strengthening that and bringing it home for the youngster. They're in charge of that feedback, they can navigate and refer to it on a much more regular basis. And it's much more personalised, because it could be a voice note with the youngster's name on it, and they're able to retrieve and refer to it on an ongoing basis. Really making that feedback richer can only be a good thing for learning.

Abdul: I think what I really loved about your project, right from the get-go when I first had conversations with your team, was that we were talking more about that pedagogical approach, and we used a lot of the Education Endowment Foundation's research and work — and for those of you listening who aren't from the UK and aren't familiar with the Education Endowment Foundation, we'll put the link as part of the podcast, so feel free to download that. They do some fantastic work around impact.

We were able to use that as a key part of the conversation, in terms of designing the strategy of what the expectations are in the classroom, to make sure we've got a consistently good learning experience. And like you said, the idea of assessment, feedback, direct instruction, independent practice, retrieval — all of these aspects have been woven in, and the technology is just allowing for that consistency, saving time, and providing efficiencies to be able to deliver it.

Donnie: Yeah, and I think you touched on a key thing there about asking the question — it's not about one-to-one devices being used all of the time. Any practitioner who uses the same methodology or the same approach isn't going to be able to engage youngsters all the time. Practitioners have to ask themselves, "why would using the device for this bit of learning be the best thing to do?" And sometimes it will be, sometimes it won't be. I think that can only be for the benefit of the youngster and the benefit of the members of staff.

Abdul: Donnie, thank you very much for your time, I really appreciate it. Thank you very much everybody for listening.